Living in Argentina

[Jaimito Cartero]

In talking with Jackson on my last trip, he said that his apartment would be reasonable at the $50k range. So I'd figure 50-75K, depending on quality and location. I don't know the SF of Jackson's place, but it might be smaller than 150SM.

[Man]

I am interested in buying a 150 Meter 2 bedroom apartment in Recoleta. Anyone knows about costs?

I am looking for a nice place, similar in standard to Jacksons apartment.

Thanks

[El Flaco]

Aragorn,

Did you took the time to read previous postings before saying that 'immigrating' or more exactly obtaining permanent residence is 'not hard' ? Actually the requirements are complex and the bureocracy is very time consuming. What is more annoying, is that you cannot obtain legal residence unless you have a job or substantial investor money deposited in the central bank. Thomas added the possibility as a pensionate that I wasn't aware of. So, if you know of any shortcuts or factual advice please share it rather than giving generic inaccurate info.

[Aragorn]

At Jackson's request and because my time in Argentina is running out, I shall start posting information about living here in Argentina. Although the process may be slow, Argentine immigration law has not changed since the 1920's so it is not hard to emmigrate here if you want to.

[Thomaso276]

The Immigration Maze

Although it has been some time since I had to write policy manuals, I will attempt to simplify the process for establishing a residence status in Argentina. I cannot guarantee that this report covers all aspects of applying for and receiving legal status as a Pensionado, because I have learned along the way and I have not fulfilled all the requirements. This outline only covers persons who are receiving a pension. I cannot comment on those who wish to establish a business or who simply have enough savings to simply retire. A visit to the Argentine Immigration Web Page listed below will provide more information.

Important Addresses

Immigration Offices: Av. Antarida 1355 Start at middle building
Web Page for Argentine Immigration: http://www.mininterior.gov.ar/
Federal Police: Azopardo 620
Colegio de Traductores Publico (Public Translation): Av. Callao 289, 4th Floor
BuenosAires-ACS@state.gov : the email address for US Embassy in BA.
Medical Tests: Rossi Clinic www.cdrossi.com Several offices in BA
The Nearest Boliche: Because you will need some stress relief!

Where to Start

Don’t make the same mistake I did. Start your paperwork compilation in the States. You will need (at least) the following original papers: (More specific information regarding what kind of status and corresponding documentation you need is on the website for Immigration)

Birth Certificate Criminal History Passport
Proof of Pension and Amount, I had the Pension Board Order – a legal document - and monthly statements showing money received.

Here is where I missed out and will have to backtrack. All papers that originate from the USA have to have an “Apostille” Stamp on them. It is a completely separate stamp from a notary or any other legal seal on the paper. Now I am still working this out, but basically it is a stamp issued by the Dept. of State (either Federal or State Organizations) that verifies the paper and authorizes other countries that have signed a treaty that recognizes civil papers issued in cooperating countries. Here is a quote from the attachment they sent me.

“Therefore, for U.S. public documents to be valid in Argentina, one should obtain an apostille (a special kind of certificate) from either (1) the U.S. Department of State, in the case of documents issued by U.S. federal agencies; (2) clerks and deputy clerks of U.S. Federal Courts for U.S. federal court document; or (3) from the secretary of state, or other authority for documents issued by authorities and notaries public in the state or other jurisdiction. Under the Hague Convention, neither Argentine consular certification, nor any other authentication other than the apostille from one of the three sources listed above, depending upon the authority which issued the document, is required for a U.S. document to be used before an Argentine civil authority.“

Although I have these papers I must now figure out a way to get them to the appropriate state agency for the Apostille Stamp. I will be going to the US Embassy next week for further clarification. I believe, for example, that a birth certificate from NY must get a stamp from the NY Dept. of State. I imagine my pension order (there is a hearing in front of a board and a legal ruling) must go to the State of Florida, Dept. of State.

Okay I Have the Papers and the Apostille Stamp

You must have these papers legally translated by a Public Translator. Go to the office listed above on Callao 289. They will ask for your current address and then search their database. They will give you a list of translators in your neighborhood. You must contact one of them to arrange the service. The price is negotiable and not set by the College. They are independent operators. I used an elderly lady who had money problems and probably overpaid. I gave her 200 pesos and she had to hire someone to type. Well, she was pleasant enough and we had a couple of lunches, it is only money. I also had about 10 papers translated because I was trying to cover all bases. Do not be fooled by the sign in the office, it relates to another process called legalization. After your papers are translated the translator will use sort of a notary stamp (the stamp is used in a manner in the rear upper left corner so it spread over the back of page one and the front of page 2!) and sign them. Make sure they arrange the papers so that the first page is the English page and the second is the Spanish ( I got one bounced back because the pages were reversed! It cost me another 10 pesos in taxi to return and get it Legalized). Legalized means that after you have your papers you return to Callao 289 and pay 15 or 20 pesos per page for another stamp. This is the process called “Legalized.” It is 15 pesos for the next day, 20 for immediate, which is about 20 minutes.

Ready Set , Slow Down

You have all your papers and are ready to go. Next comes the medical exam. You can get it done privately or they will let you make an appointment at the Health Section in the Immigration Building. I went private and used the Rossi Clinic. You need blood work and a chest XRAY. Total cost less than 100 pesos. Blood test is for AIDS, and some other stuff I do not understand. The web page for the Immigration Dept. outlines what tests you need. Just print it out and bring it with you to show to reception. Blood test results take a week, the XRAY was delivered while I waited. When you are ready for “document verification desk” at Immigration bring all the papers and the XRAY. There is a medical section in the buildings where a Doctor reviews and approves your health based on the report. It saves some time to have them in hand.

Have You Been Good In BA?

I haven’t completed this part yet but at some point in time you have to be checked by the Federal Police (PFA). There is an application form at the building listed above on Azopado. Do not go there yet, just read on. You get the form at the front counter, but have to ask for it. You do not have to wait in line (there are always lines) because a lot of those folks are trying to get other internal papers from the PFA. Just wal;k through the front doors and the counter is on the left. The form is 8 x 20 and is titled “Formulario De Solicitud De Passporte / Cedula / Certificados.” You want to check off the box that says “Certificado de Antecedentes.” Face the wall where all the numbers for waiting are flashed and employees are behind their desks. Look right towards the office where you can pay for copies (bring copies of your passport), walk towards that section and on your left you will see a large sample hanging from a column of the form you are holding. It shows folks how to fill it out and really helps. The line for the antecedents is usually very short. You do not need a number, just wait in line.

When I was there 2 months ago, with a Spanish speaking friend, I handed the lady the application and was told that I needed a stamp from Immigration on the form! Immigration never told me I need the application stamped before the PFA would process it. Last week when I was at Immigration, there was a section headed “PFA.” I saw a lady taking fingerprints and the applications. Perhaps you do not need to go to Azopardo since they restructured Immigration. I do not know. I do not know if the application form is available at Immigration. I can say that I had a meeting last week with a supervisor at Immigration who reviewed my paperwork and told me that after I get the Apostille stamp on three papers (Birth Cert., Criminal history from USA, and Pension statement) to bring them directly to him. I think I will then go through the medical process and PFA process right in the Immigration building.

I Have Everything and am Ready for Anything

If you are lucky and smarter than me (which isn’t difficult) when you go to Immigration on Antarida 1355, you will have everything ready. There will be lines. Monday is really bad. They are only open from 8:30 am to 1:30 pm, Show your stuff to a Coast Guard type guy at the middle building and wait in line outside the building. Once you get into the building get a number for the “Document Checking / Certification” counter. They hand you one right at the information desk. Each area has excellent signage. The girls that work there verify your documents and then I imagine allow you to go to the Medical, or PFA sections for further waiting. I never got past the counter but I am getting armed for my next encounter.


Where I Went Wrong

Just a few points to ponder. I got all my papers in the USA in December and subsequently found out about the Apostille stamp. I am in BA from from Jan. to June, 2004. I wasted a day at the PFA and got turned away because I did not have the Immigration Department Stamp on the application. Your documents are only good for 6 months then you have to start over again (I don’t think this is for the Birth Certificate, but for Medical, Criminal checks, etc., anything that could change after 6 months). My clock is ticking and I do not think I will make it in time. Of course, Immigration was closed for the whole month of January for their vacations. My translator did not tell me to take the papers back to Callao for Legalization so I was frustrated at Immigration when the girl told me the papers were not valid and to go back for Legalization (which at the time I did not understand – I believed the stamp from the translator was adequate). You may run into time limits at Immigration. For example, because they are only open 5 hours daily, if you leave the document checking section and go to get a number chit for the medical section, they may tell you to come back tomorrow because they have maxed out for the day and will not issue any more numbers. After my frustrating second trip, I asked an employee at Immigration to recommend a lawyer. I went to see the lawyer, he spoke no English and it was confusing. I did see the recommending employee while at the lawyers office a couple of days later so I felt there was a good connection. Anyhow, the lawyer didn’t know much about the system, and I haven’t heard from him since. No fee paid. There doesn’t seem to be a Immigration lawyer group down here. In Costa Rica there are companies that specialize in getting you resident for a fee. My investment so far, including copies, cabs, fees, etc. is less than 200 dollars. The fee for the card is 200 pesos. To get papers to the states and have them stamped and pay those fees might run another 100 dollars. I am starting to wonder if it is worth it. Bring a Spanish speaker with you. This is not “how much” “sin condom” “dos horas” Spanish. It is confusing unless you are fluent and I am not fluent.

OH NO MORE INFO

Today (March 6) at the gym I met a young American guy who married an Argentine girl and is living here. He told me he was applying for the residence as well. He said he needed an FBI fingerprint check for his application. I have not been told about this by anyone else. He said he went to the Police Station by Grants Restaurant on Alvear , in Recoleta (?) – I know the station but cannot remember the street. They printed him and he sent the prints to the States, it took about a month to get it back. That seems pretty quick becasue FBI checks can take months. He uses an intermediary in the States to help the process. My background and basis for pension may exclude the FBI check, as the Supervisor I spoke with at immigration never mentioned it as part of the criminal history check from a Police Dept. in the States. The guy at the gym also introduced me to a friend, another American, who bought the private Health Insurance for use here at the German Hospital, it is on Purreydon past French Street. He has no resident status (they just wanted his monthly premium) and pays under 200 pesos monthly for coverage, he he 39 years old. He said he got check ups, dental cleaning, and may need some inner ear problems solved (broken ear drum) all at no extra cost. I’ll be looking into this soon. One of the big reasons I wanted the card was to explore getting health insurance, but I may not need the residence status. Anyhow, while this process has been a pain, it gives me something to do and being a stubborn Irishman I think I am going to stick with it till I get the damn card! Off to Uruguay in a couple of weeks to cover my 3 month limit.

[DownBA]

Otto and Tomaso, thanks for the info, glad to hear there are still plenty of places more in line with what I'd be willing to spend were I to rent a place in BA for a year. Stranger things have been known to happen in my life, you never know when I might have a good business reason to do just that. And yes, I think there are plenty of nice neighborhoods other than Recoleta. DownBA

[OttoGraham]

Recoleta is only one of many nice neighborhoods in Buenos Aires.

As an example, Exon123 and I were in Palermo Hollywood having lunch at the excellent Spirit (reviewed on the restaurant page), and I noticed how genuinely nice the neighborhood was. I'd previously only been there during the evening, so I hadn't had the opportunity to see this neighborhood.

It's only a six peso cab ride from Village Recoleta.

One example of many.

-Uncle Otto

[Thomaso276]

DownBA:
Absolutely. There are plenty of deals in BA for well under 1000, and 500 monthly will get you very nice digs such as a studio or one bedroom in an excellent building outside of Recoleta. My problem was wanting two bedroom , two bath with pool. I prefer a seperate bathroom for the girls and the second bedroom is for screwing and partying. I also found that real estate agents are begging for units to rent to foreigners so dealing directly with an owner was limited but not impossible. Owners don't want to spend alot of time showing their properties. For example, one day I went to an apartment in Recoleta advertised in La Nacion. There were 4 locals waiting to see it. The owner never showed up! Take care. Tom

[DownBA]

Tomaso, thanks for the info!

So is it safe to say that you can get a reasonably nice one bedroom apartment for under U$1000 per month if you don't mind being in Belgrano or Palermo or one of those neighborhoods 15-20 minutes by taxi from Recoletta?

Seems to me there were quite a number of places available away from Recoleta for between U$500 - 1000 but it's also true that a fair number of them were studios, but some of them were very nice looking studios. Personally, that's what I would have in mind if I were looking and I've stayed in Palermo and Belgrano and I like those neighborhoods a lot. Sounds like you're going to be having more than your fair share of fun in the coming months, Tomaso. Happy mongering!! DownBA

[Thomaso276]

DownBA:

Yes there are alot of ads in LaNacion, Clarin and Herald. As well as some other local papers that do not get publicized here. You can limit your searches on LaNacion to new ads posted that day as well. So I stayed pretty current and please remember that I was not looking for a good, reasonable apartment. I wanted better amenities and style that are limited in Recoleta buildings because they are old. (Belgrano and Palermo did not do it for me, too far from the action) I like to walk when I go out.

For example at Callao and Melo there is large building (maybe 20-25 stories) with a pool on the corner of the property, the building has no balconies. I went there with an Argentine friend and he said he was looking for himself. I did not say a word. Looked at two 2 bedroom, I bath units. Both furnished, high with a nice view. He was quoted 2200 and 2500 pesos monthly. The units were clean but had a tired look; worn carpet and furnishings. The doors looked like thay could be kicked in with little effort. They were not bad but not top end. The gym was a joke. The pool was old and worn. There is a big difference, for me at least, in living in an apartment or renting one for short stays of a month or less. For one month I would have been comfortable there. A two year stint would be impossible.

[Thomaso276]

DownBA:

Yes there are alot of ads in LaNacion, Clarin and Herald. As well as some other local papers that do not get publicized here. You can limit your searches on LaNacion to new ads posted that day as well. So I stayed pretty current and please remember that I was not looking for a good, reasonable apartment. I wanted better amenities and style that are limited in Recoleta buildings because they are old. (Belgrano and Palermo did not do it for me, too far from the action) I like to walk when I go out.

For example at Callao and Melo there is large building (maybe 20-25 stories) with a pool on the corner of the property, the building has no balconies. I went there with an Argentine friend and he said he was looking for himself. I did not say a word. Looked at two 2 bedroom, I bath units. Both furnished, high with a nice view. He was quoted 2200 and 2500 pesos monthly. The units were clean but had a tired look; worn carpet and furnishings. The doors looked like thay could be kicked in with little effort. They were not bad but not top end. The gym was a joke. The pool was old and worn. There is a big difference, for me at least, in living in an apartment or renting one for short stays of a month or less. For one month I would have been comfortable there. A two year stint would be impossible.

By the way furniture stores are next on my search list. Although my apartment is furnished and equipped I told the landlady to take all the living room furniture out. Heavy dark, grandmother hand me down furniture is not what I was looking for and most furnished apartments have that stlyle. Saint's places were the exception. The furniture store "block" on Arenales (between 9 of July and Callao) was a major dissapointment. Quality items but very, very expensive and a bit insulting when I asked for a price on a piece. I took a trip to the 2000 block of Belgrano because local contacts, regular citizens, had recommended Av. Belgrano, and I checked out over a dozen stores. Good quality leather and wood furnishings. Asking prices were half of Arenales. For example a leather recliner in Arenales was over 2000 pesos, on Belgrano 900. A 2 person leather couch on Arenales 4000 pesos, on Belgrano 2000. I did a search on USA furniture sites for similar products and prices for the Belgrano stores were about 200 dollars cheaper than in the States. At one store on Arenales there was a fancy TV/Stereo stand made with glass, wood and steel . When I asked the saleman for a price he scribbled out $5000 pesos on a quote sheet. They were beautiful pieces but not worth that kind of money! When I get those kind of price quotes I just walk away. Most stores did not have price tags so it is a big negotiation game. Furniture stores in Buenos Aires Design were actually cheaper than Arenales and they put price tags on their merchandise for all to see. So at least all customers start off on equal footing, not just gringo prices. Luego.

[DownBA]

Fellas, if you go to www.buenosairesherald.com and look on the right side of the home page you'll see real estate offerings with dozen and dozens of apartments going for much less than the offering prices Tomaso and others are talking about. I think it might pay to check these offerings out if you're in the market for a good, reasonable apartment rental. DownBA

[MeGustaBoliches]

Thamaso.

Congrats on scoring a new apartment.

I just finished a similar search. I have a two bedroom unit in Saint's old building. My lease was one year with an option for a second year at the same price. I decided to look around to test the market before exercising my option. I looked, but soon discovered prices have really jumped in the past year...especially in good areas.

I found a newly renovated, unfurnished one bedroom on Libertador for 1200pesos and another small one bedroom for 100pesos on Montevideo near Libertador.

Prices for the two bedrooms I saw ranged from 1200pesos to 2200pesos in Palermo (near the American embassy and near the Easy/Jumbo store), in Botanico (across the street from the zoo) and in Recoleta (Libertad, etc). I found an apartment overlooking Recoleta (same view as the hotel Etoile) for 700dollars.....

In the end I stayed where I am: a furnished two bedroom in Torre Libertad for 600dollars per month, all bills paid. No deposit/no commission. I signed another one year lease, with an option...but this time the owner wanted more for the second year: 675dollars. Still, for a building with great security, a pool, party room, gym, sauna, and air conditioning....it is not a bad deal.....

It will be interesting to see what happens with the pending economic showdown pitting Argentina against the IMF and bond holders. Things could get very cheap again, or continue to go up

[Thomaso276]

The search is over. Wow, did I learn alot in the last couple of weeks. The bottom line is that prices are rising for real estate.

One of my neighbors here (500 block of Quintana) is up for renewal and the asking price is going up 300 pesos monthly - from 1400 to 1700. His unit is a duplex and it is very nice and roomy but he must use the service elevator for access and our bulding has NO amenities.

On to the newer buildings. For example, there were two apartments available on Libertad, in Saint's old building. Both were 2BR 2BA, one was on the front of the building, the other on the back side. The one on the front was 3000 pesos monthly and it had a bigger kitchen area, it was to be rented unfurnished. The broker wanted a full month commision (5% of the total rent for two years) and a deposit of one month rent. The one on the backside of the building had a smaller kitchen and minimal furnishings. The view from the terrace was bad - you looked at the backside of other surrounding buildings. They wanted 2700 pesos monthly. Although both were very nice units, the second bedroom is very small. I like the second bedroom for playing around so 8 X 9 leaves little room for error! The second unit was shown by a gentleman named Jorge Gibbons, he speaks excellent English and knows the market. His cell phone is 15-5663-8818. He runs a small ad in LaNacion and helped one of my neighbors find an apartment. I have dealt with several brokers and highly recommend him. He does some short term stuff, but mostly one year or more. I told him about another building on Callao (I had done my homework on buildings in Recoleta) and he showed me a larger 2Br, 2Ba on the 9th floor overlooking the street. Very new and modern, pool and sundeck on the roof and small gym room with some treadmills, bike, weights, a universal machine and 24 hours security. The gym is okay for a tuneup but I am going to stay with my current gym. Furnished and equipped. I offered $830 monthly (about 2450 in pesos) and put down a deposit. They had been asking $2700 pesos. It has a terrace, new appliances, including a washer machine (very important to me) and the bathrooms were remodeled and very modern. His commission : 2000 pesos, less than one month, I could not weasle out of the damage deposit but they settled for 2000 pesos. Jorge had mentioned Torres Plaza, a twin tower complex in Palermo/Belgrano that had a unit for rent, but it was $1000 dollars monthly and the rooms were smaller. That was something I already discovered, in the newer buildings the rooms are smaller so they can get more bang for their buck when building. These newer complexes are a little off the main track and I really like being able to walk a couple of blocks to hit any number of boliches.

When I met with the owner of the Callao unit, she lamented how the family had bought the apartment and then remodeled it just before the crash with Peso/Dollars. She said she will never get her investment back.


I close the contact next week so I am still keeping my fingers crossed. Overall I am pretty happy with the upgrade and being able to stay within walking distance of all Recoleta has to offer.

Finally, when I get into the new place, Jackson told me to use the board to let folks know about renting short term my existing apartment during the transfer as I will have some overlap time with both units. Thanks Jackson! I will post the info when all is done.

Next report: the search through the Immigration Maze continues.

[Thomaso276]

Here is the latest in the search.

Today I took a ride to Palermo Hollywood to look at some lofts that have been advertised in La Nacion and Clarin. They are called Silos Dorrego. I wanted to arrive early and walk around before meeting the broker. When the cab pulled up to the building, it took me all of 5 minutes to tell him to go back to Quintana. The neighborhood would be considered "blighted" in the States. Surrounded by car repair shops and guys with tattoos all over the area. Yes the restaraunt area was just a couple of blocks away (Palermo Hollywood is supposed to be the chich place now), but I couldn't imagine walking there at night. The area is more rightly known as Chacarita and Villa Crespo. I was another case of a developer taking over a depressed area / building and converting the units. They then try to sell or rent them as the up and coming place to be. Sorry but I am too old to start over with urban development. Additionally whenever I take a ride to a new area I look to see how many cabs are cruising looking for fares. Ther were none for several blocks in this area. Not a good sign for security issues.

Tommorrow I have an appointment to see an apartment in Saints old building on Libertad. I am familiar with it - it is first class - and I prefer the downtown, Recoleta area. The realtor said it was 3000 pesos for 2Br 2Ba. I'll keep you updated on how hard that price is.

Sorry guys, but the ads in the Clarin are for apartments I would not rent. When you do a search for anything between 1000 and 3000 pesos you get about 6 results. I am not ready to move to Once or Centro. And alot of the apartments are in old buildings. Please remember that there is a difference between renting short term and living here. Short term mid level digs are fine for a week or two, but try to think how you live in the states. Do you live next to public housing? or along the RR tracks? Are there several streets in your neighborhood that have boarded up storefronts and vacant apartments with broken windows? Is your apartment 33 sq. meters with a tiny bedroom. Are there 5 units per floor? Meaning lots of visitors to scope out your comings and goings so they can get themselves a new TV when you step out!

Now it is time for my home cooked, buck a pound sirloin. The food is still a great value (as are the chicas).

Later,

Tom